Transcript from Campbell Brown's Show aired March 22,2010
BROWN: Tonight, former President Bill Clinton is speaking out about President Obama's health care victory, a victory just out of his own reach.
Clinton spoke with CNN in
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BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm very happy. You know, I worked hard.
The president and Rahm Emanuel gave me people to call. I called. I did my part.
Quite apart from the need to insure more people, we were on the verge of bankrupting our future. We're spending 17.2 percent of our income on health care. No other big country is spending more than 10.5 percent, including all of those that have higher ratings than we do.
It's like we put ourselves in a trillion-dollar hole every year not to get better health care because of the way we deliver health care and the way we finance it. Will this solve all those problems? No. But it will solve about two-thirds of the uninsured problem and it will begin to lower this back-breaking inflation that had a stranglehold on America's economy and provide real security to everybody, without requiring anyone to change their health policy.
The fundamental difference, besides the fact that -- you know, Nancy Pelosi did a great job in the House. But the fundamental difference between now and then, besides the fact that all of the indicators have gotten worse, so people understand how much more important it is, is that they filibustered it to death in the Senate, and they couldn't do it this time.
And so the president who hung in there when people were telling him to pack it in, and all the others that were able to work out, they were able to legislate it and compromise and work through to a solution. I'm thrilled. It's a great thing for America.
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BROWN: And no question about it, no matter what you think about this health care reform bill this is a huge victory for President Obama.
And we want to bring in our panel to talk about all of this. With me is senior political analyst Gloria Borger,
Welcome to everybody.
David Gergen, let me start with you.
I know it hasn't been easy, but
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. It was a dramatic victory, a historic victory. It puts him in -- it's his legacy. It will be forever remembered by historians as the most important piece of social legislation to pass since the 1960s, since Medicare.
It ranks right up there with Social Security and Medicare as transformative of the social landscape. At the same time, it was a bittersweet day, Campbell, because as sweet as it was for Democrats, it was very bitter for opponents.
And in contrast to Social Security, which got 80 percent of approval from the
BROWN: And, too, David Frum, a president who promised to govern sort of in the spirit of bipartisanship, what does this really mean going forward? DAVID FRUM, FORMER SPEECHWRITER FOR FORMER PRESIDENT
We're also going to be into a period of, I hope, some reflection within the Republican Party about whether the Republicans have handled this situation as intelligently as they could have.
BROWN: And how would you have advised them to handle it differently, I guess?
FRUM: I would have advised them to dig in, in the Senate, hold your group together, and then see if -- if the promise of having that political cover of 10 or 12 additional Republican votes would get you something you really wanted, something like no increase in taxes on productive enterprise, something like much less regulation inside these health exchanges.
If those things could have been had, those would have been worth having, because, remember, the exchange is itself a Republican idea. The idea of taxing these high-value plans, those are Republican ideas. The core elements of this plan ought to have been acceptable, if you could delete some of the more redistributionist elements.
It was worth trying. And President Obama looked like he badly wanted it. Senator Baucus looked like he badly wanted it. And we didn't really pursue it.
BROWN: He -- there are a lot of people, Jeff, who still have a lot of the doubts about this, I think, on the whole. And now he's going to go out there, I guess starting, what, Thursday to talk it up on the road. What does very to do to sort of bring the country together, given that Republicans are going to be at war between now and November?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I don't think the country is going to come together. What he has to do is get the coalition that elected him president back together.
He has to persuade independents that the specific benefits, the no- preexisting-condition exclusion, no -- allowing children to stay on your health plan until you're 26 years old -- talk about the specifics of the legislation, because it will be the law. And the idea -- I mean, you know, it seems to me -- David is talking about the Republican Party.
The biggest change in American politics over the past 40 years is the disappearance of the moderate Republicans, whether it's, you know, John Heinz and Lowell Weicker in the Senate, or, you know -- three of the four
So, the opportunity for compromise is gone.
BROWN: Gloria, go ahead. Jump in here.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I was just going to say, look, the president clearly has a problem here, which is they passed this big-government plan, which is more government involvement in your health care, which is the most personal thing that government can get involved in, one would think, at a time when trust in government is lower than it was even during Watergate.
And our poll at CNN today shows that only one in five people believe that this health care plan is actually going to help them. He's got to get out there and sell this in a way that is so very different from when Medicare and Social Security was passed, as David was talking about.
In those instances, people knew who was going to benefit right away. You would say, OK, I'm over 65 years old. This is going to help me. I know it's going to help me.
Right now, the Democrats and the president have to go out and convince the American people that this is good for them. And Jeffrey's right. There are certain things that are going to happen right away that people are going to like. But a good deal of this is not going to take effect until 2014. And so that's the real challenge for them right now.
BROWN: All right, guys, stand by, because it's more than just partisanship that I think we're talking about here.
When we come back, we're going to pick it up and take a look at the sort of no-holds-barred spitting match that has at times turned this debate into a pretty ugly debacle.
Stand by. We will be back in just a moment.
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BROWN: There were downright nasty moments leading up to the health care vote on Capitol Hill. And today leaders of both parties condemned some of the ugliest protests. Take a look.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some of them ugly, racial epithets hurled at Congressman John Lewis and Emanuel Cleaver, who was also spat upon. He points at the spitter: "You spit on me. You spit on me."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was the exact phraseology they used?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) They heard it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kill the bill and then the N-word several times.
REP. JOHN LEWIS (D), GEORGIA: I think there's a great deal of frustration and just outright anger, people being mean to each other.
UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: Kill the bill! Kill the bill! DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Congressman Barney Frank, who is openly gay, and another slur was hurled at him.
REP. BARNEY FRANK (D-MA),
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those who are shouting out are out of order.
REP. RANDY NEUGEBAUER (R),
We should mention, though, he explains in a statement -- I'm going to read it -- he explains that he was saying, "It's a baby killer," and not calling Stupak a baby killer.
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BROWN: And back with me once again, Gloria Borger, David Frum, Jeff Toobin, and
David Frum, what do you think when you look at some of the ugliness we saw over the weekend? I mean, obviously, this is the fringe. But they're casting a pretty bad light on your party, aren't they?
DAVID FRUM, EDITOR, FRUMFORUM.COM: Yes. I mean, to the people the racial epithets for sure, that's extremely marginal. I'm not going to generalize that at all. But the mood, if there's been a trend in American politics from the flag burners of the '60s to operation rescue to act up, there's a belief that if you can just show people how angry you are, you'll convince somebody. And maybe there's an exception to the rule but I don't think that ever convinces anybody.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: You know, Campbell, look back to Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan was a conservative, probably wouldn't like this health care legislation very much, who knows? But he wasn't angry. He could still talk about his conservative values without shouting names at people. He was civil. He had joint meetings of Congress in his office when he was president. And people don't like angry politicians on either side, particularly those independent voters who are sick of them all. So, you know, I don't think this helps the Republican Party at all. And I think Democratic anger back doesn't help either.
BROWN: Let me, before I go to David Gergen and Jeff, I just want to go back to David Frum on this because, you know, you may take that position, David, that, you know, I think you wrote that health care is your party's waterloo. But there are a lot of Republicans who would say, hey look, we need this. It gives us something to run against in November. This is a major, major issue for us. And we do have to be aggressive about it.
FRUM: Be aggressive, fine. And criticize the things that are wrong with the bill, fine. There are going to be a lot of other things to run against, by the way. There's going to be overspending. If
But what has happened here is that these -- this anger contracts and constrains the politicians themselves. And a lot of politicians are going to be in very different places from where they want to be.
BROWN: Jeff -- well, I want to ask you, too because in some states they're taking it even further. I know a number of attorneys general have come forward and said they're going to file lawsuits on behalf of their states. You and I have talked about this before. There's no real merit to many of these cases, right.
BROWN: Well, we had Senator John Thune on earlier in the show who was denouncing him. So I don't want to generalize.
TOOBIN: But, I mean, when it was happening there, they were holding up signs encouraging him.
BROWN: David Gergen, go ahead.
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I just have a different take than Jeffrey on this. Look, what happened was deeply offensive in many instances, the spit on John Lewis, the hero of Selma, you know, is hugely offensive to most Americans. And the Republicans, I think Jeffrey is right on one point. The Republican leadership really ought to calm this down and call this off. They do have a responsibility.
But I want to make one other point. One other reason that it's in the Republican self-interest because what we did face early in the
GERGEN: We've heard Congressman Ryan. We heard Congressman Cantor. You know, you just had John Thune on the air, Campbell. And so listen to someone like David Frum. People who -- the Republicans to the extent that they can now become a party of fresh ideas and fresh thinking, that is what's going to help them get back into office. It's not just repeal. It's replace. What is the replacement? If they can come up with elements of that, they have the makings of a new contract with America. But every time there's somebody spitting or yelling "baby killer" or whatever it is, it detracts from the Republican Party finding its idea base. Ronald Reagan was about more than being civil. He was also about ideas.
BROWN: Right. All right, guys.
BORGER: And you know, the question is -- do you have that for 2010? Or does the anger get the Republicans through 2010 where they pick up a bunch of seats and then have to find their new voice in their new leaders for the next presidential?
BROWN: All right, guys. We have to end it. Many thanks to everybody. Appreciate your time tonight.